Why Be An Effective Egoist?

An Interview with Don Watkins

I was recently interviewed by Mike Fallat on his Million Dollar Stories podcast. The topic was my most recent book, Effective Egoism.

On happiness:

Mike: Jordan Peterson has a great way of analyzing happiness. He says that happiness is the awareness of incremental progress towards a goal. And I think that really falls in line with what I believe happiness is not a destination, it is a journey. But it's the realization that you are going somewhere, and you're actually closer to it today than you were yesterday. So do you believe in that same definition?

Don: Well, there's something right about that. So the wrong view of happiness (and this is one reason why people will criticize and dismiss happiness as an illusion) is, in effect, “happily ever after.” Okay, I've satisfied my my desires, and now I don't want anything else.

And then they'll point out, no, as soon as you get something, you want something more. Yes, because the work of living is never done. You can satisfy a desire, but you can't satisfy desire, and what would be the point of living if you could? And so our life is and should be a constant process of growth from one achievement to another.

But what I don't agree with is this perspective that the achievements are unimportant—that it's all about the journey. No, it's about achieving values. But the process of pursuing a value is itself a value. The process of making progress is a value, but it's only a value because you're making progress towards something that you're actually achieving.

So, for instance, I get a lot of pleasure out of writing books. And writing books is a process of waking up, putting a few words on the page, deleting them, waking up the next day, putting a few more words on the page. There's there's a famous line that a lot of writers echo, which is, “I don't like writing, I like having written.” Now I think that's such a garbage attitude. I'm not going to devote my life to something that I only like when it's done. But the enjoyment that I get from writing a book is the fact that eventually the result is a book.

And so you need both perspectives: that there are specific goals that I want to actualize—and then what I want is to select goals in which the journey there is a value itself. Because life is a circle: it's a circle of pursuing things that keep you alive, but life just is the continued process of pursuing things. And so it's both the pursuit and the result that should be valuable and rewarding.

On struggle:

Mike: Struggle plays a factor in all of this. And I think that, when you have realized that you are going uphill in life, and you actually want to keep going, you have found your path where it's a little bit more difficult than just kind of laying back and being stagnant. But the struggle not only gets the best out of you, but there's a dopamine hit, there's a reward, there's a feeling of accomplishment that comes along with doing something that is requiring maybe the very best version of yourself. So how does struggle play?

Don: I don't believe that life is about struggle. I believe that life requires effort. And the two mistakes that you can make are seeking to avoid effort. And, as you mentioned, that's a catastrophe, right? Like, you're never going to get anywhere. You basically are put in a situation where you essentially try to dull your mind and escape from the demands of living.

But struggle, per se, I don't think is a value. I do a lot of coaching and advising people about building careers that they love. And my view is, if you're experiencing your career as a struggle, sometimes that happens, and it's necessary. But I view that essentially as a problem to be solved.

I don't experience my career is a struggle. It takes a lot of effort. I work a lot of hours, it's really demanding work, and requires a lot of growth. But it's really fun. I get to wake up and think about cool ideas and have great conversations with people all day and solve really fascinating problems. I don't experience that as a struggle. It's demanding, and what you want is effort, but effort that's enjoyable and fun to make.

And if you have moments of struggle, my thoughts are with you, and I hope you overcome them. But life shouldn't be experienced that way. That's a signal that I'm not on the right trajectory in some way. Life should be experienced as demanding fun.

On self-interest:

Mike: So tell me a little about self interest and maybe why culture or society says it's a bad thing.

Don: Well look, another way of putting it is: your life matters. That you have the right to exist, that there's no reason anybody has ever given for why you should sacrifice your life and your happiness except for someone says so. And so my perspective is that what your whole life is about is making the most of your time on earth.

Now, part of the reason why self interest has a bad name is because, as we mentioned before, it's equated with doing whatever you feel like doing. But doing whatever you feel like doing isn't going to lead to a great life any more than eating whatever you feel like eating is going to lead to great health.

Or it's equated with being unprincipled: lying, cheating, stealing. And we talked a little bit about that. But part of my view is that the interests of human beings don't conflict, not if what they're pursuing is rational.

Think about how you gain values from other people. Well, I'm guessing it involves learning from others: that doesn't require their sacrifice, right? Somebody doesn't have to lose for you to learn.

It requires trading with others. You go to the store, and it's not like the grocer is saying, “All right, well, here's the food, take it and run.” No, it's a trade. You're giving him money, he's giving the food, and you both end up better off.

It's through human connection. There are unhealthy relationships that people have, where one side is taking more than they're giving, right? But a healthy relationship is mutually fulfilling.

So if you actually think about what we can gain from others, what is worth gaining, it doesn't require either person to sacrifice. Everybody can become better off. And it's only when people aren't being rational, aren't thinking about what's genuinely good for them, that you get into the sacrificial relationships.

So once you take off the table, the idea that self-interest is about doing whatever you feel like doing, and that it involves somebody's loss in order for you to gain, then there's no reason on earth why you should subordinate that to something else.

And so then the question is really, how do you define your interests? And how do you pursue them? And that really is what I think the subject of morality is about. And certainly that's the take on morality that I give in Effective Egoism.

You can listen to the whole interview here:

Effective Egoism 101

The conception of earthly idealism I champion was defined by Ayn Rand. Here are three key works that summarize her perspective:

• Faith and Force: Destroyers of the Modern World by Ayn Rand

• Causality vs. Duty by Ayn Rand

• The Objectivist Ethics by Ayn Rand

And if want the full case for egoism, you can buy my book Effective Egoism: An Individualist’s Guide to Pride, Purpose, and the Pursuit of Happiness.